Kim Kardashian on Vogue Italia: The Interview
So much of Kim Kardashian’s life is an ongoing replica of events or states of mind she has gone through and is constantly asked to re-live for the benefit of an audience. Those who follow her on her reality TV show The Kardashians (airing in Italy on Disney+), enter a kind of voyeuristic, hypnotic loop that creates the illusion of actually being really intimate with her. Alas, I am one of those people. In a kind of nostalgic 90’s Valley girl fantasyland, I’ve repeatedly watched of moments from Kim’s youth on TV and social media.
One of my favorite ones is an old school video recording of Kim’s father, the attorney and businessman, Robert Kardashian, surprising her with a luxury car for her 16th birthday. Robert had told his daughter it would be a long time before she’d get to have a car of her own. When Kim finds the white BMW waiting for her in the driveway, her reaction is beyond enthusiastic. «Happy birthday you are the best, you are gorgeous, you deserve this automobile and it better be cleaned every week», her father says on camera.
There is something so reassuring, about that paternal voice. It exudes that warm, comforting feeling that any girl with father issues would love to bask in. Some part of me connected with that Kim, so full of awe and emotion, to that world where fathers handed over car keys for your sweet 16th birthday and told you you actually “deserved” an automobile. On a very high school level, I wanted to peek into the very early dreams of that girl. The Kim before Kanye, before motherhood, before reality TV, Skims, and SKNN. I was interested in that VHS tape of her screaming with joy, in the Kim who liked to experiment with makeup and clothes until she realized she could build a career out of it, the one who liked to go to the mall with her seven besties, the one who would later declare that if she weren’t who she is today she would probably work at Macy’s. Drugstore Kim, Beverly Hills DMV Kim, the Kim who would sneak into her father’s studio and go through his court cases (he had initially been one of the lawyers in the OJ Simpson trial) and fantasize about one day taking on those same heavy responsibilities.
This was the Kim I imagined had inspired so many people: driven and explosive, naturally finding her stride against the backdrop of the most sanguine and revolutionary days of Los Angeles, the early years of riots and earthquakes, and slow speed chases along the highway. I had seen glimpses of that person in interviews, on SNL, in reality show confessionals, red carpets, and magazine spreads. I had also forgotten about that person and returned to her with a sense of nostalgia. Maybe because this was Kim before she began to share her life, before, like a Jedi master, she perfected the art of calmness and serenity, the Kim who screamed in front of a new car. I had seen her pick up crying babies while working on her business launch, observed her in large monochromatic rooms breathing through it all, unfazed by noise, chaos, and gossip. Even when she got into actual physical fights with her sister Kourtney, she maintained a spectacular allure. All I wanted to know was how she managed to pull it off.
So: has it been crazy?
Yes, but I thrive best in chaos.
How many hours of sleep do you get a night?
I like to get seven, that feels complete to me. When I can get more than that I’ll take it. I'm a sleeper. And I love flying because that’s when I get to do it. I just unplug. I go in my pajamas and fall right asleep, I can really fall asleep anywhere.
Really?
It’s my thing, yes.
Are you ever overwhelmed by the continuous turns your life takes?
I try not to be. I was having this conversation today with my mom about trying to be present and live life. She sends me videos of scenery all the time. Her biggest thing when we're traveling is always: «Put your phone down, look out the window!» Even if we’re in different cars, heading from the airport to wherever we’re going, she'll call and say: «Are you on your phone? Drop it!».
… She says, using her phone to remind you not to use yours.
I know, but she does try to protect that time and have us not be too overwhelmed.
Initially I thought there was a mythology around the fact that you manage to do it all, but I now see and understand that you actually do.
It's a lot, you know? On social media I'll always post the sassy photo or the cutest shot, but I'll definitely make sure to include one where my kids might not be getting along that well because I think it's really important to understand that too. I look at a lot of my friends and their kids are perfect and I don't know how to do it and I don't understand it and I'm envious and it's amazing all at the same time. There's a lot in a household with four, four different personalities. I feel so lucky and blessed to have help, but no matter how much help you have, your babies want their mommy, you have to be the one to solve every problem and act like you have it all together. I have so much respect for parents and now I can't believe what my mom went through.
You definitely gain a different perspective about your own parents when you become one.
I constantly ask her: «How did you do it? Six kids, six big personalities. We’re all so different, how did you really handle it?».
And what does she say?
She is just like: «Why do you think I had my vodka at 5:00 o'clock every day?»
What do you do to relax from like a long day of work?
I love to just lay in my bed. My perfect day of relaxation would just be to lay in bed and watch TV. Right now I’m in the middle of getting ready to do interviews for my TV show.
Do your confessional moments on your show ever feel therapeutic?
Absolutely. Sometimes I'll burst out in tears, retelling or revisiting something. Sometimes I get mad all over again. If it's a sensitive issue and it comes out so much later than when you were filming it, it’s always a surprise.
One of my favorite moments to re-visit in your life (which is, I realize, is a really absurd thing to say) is the day when you passed your baby bar.
That's one of my favorite episodes too. My daughter was there with me. For a long time it was difficult for her to understand why I was studying all the time. She saw me fail and cry, she saw how I was no different than her when she was worried because of a test. But when she saw me cry from joy, I knew she understood how important that achievement was to me personally.
That moment holds the seed of deep potential change in the criminal justice reform. America’s relationship with the death penalty and unjust incarceration, seems so terrifying to the rest of the world. Anyone who is willing to fight that beast deserves real respect.
Thank you for saying that. The cases come to me from all different people and different reasons. A lot of them come through letters or from other people, but when I take something on I really want to take my time to get to know the person I am going to help. Sometimes, if it's not a quick emergency case, I have a visit, but if there's an execution and we're fighting hard for it, there is no time, just action.
I wonder how this part of your life trickles into the rest. Do these stories come back to you in your dreams, are they an active part of your consciousness?
That's such an interesting question. I don't really have the most vivid dreams, but I think when you have a visit in prison and get a chance to meet people who are incarcerated, those feelings don't go away, they push you and make you understand how unfair our system is and how different it would be if we had rehabilitation centers instead of prisons. I was able to bring my sister Khloé last time and that was really important because she sees all the work I do. Once you get to know the people and get an understanding of where they came from and how they came to make the decisions that they did, your heart just completely opens up.
What is the case that you have felt like the closest to, that you felt the proudest of?
Alice Johnson's case will always be close to my heart. It’s been five years since she was released from jail. It was the first experience that opened me up to create this change. It was the catalyst for all the change that came later. But even the case of a gentleman named Brandon Bernard whom I wasn't able to help and was executed, has taught us invaluable lessons.
A big part of you wanting to practice law is linked to your father. What are your memories of your dad at work?
I saw how he would work on a specific case and I would observe him. I learned grace from my dad and how to be really calm and collected and I think I definitely am that way a lot as well. Even when he got mad at us, it was a process, a conversation. He would say: «Hey, come over here, we need to talk about this». When my mom would get mad, it would be quite funny because she couldn’t get our names straight. She would scream at me and be like: «Kourtney, Kylie, really, whatever your name is, get over here!».
Mothers are not supposed to show distressed emotions or feelings of being overwhelmed, but mine did when I was growing up and it was helpful to get the emotional temperature of the household. It taught me to be strong and empathic. How are you about showing your emotions to your kids? Do you let your guard down?
I think I'm a mix. If it's something concerning my kids’ dad and I'm upset, I try not to show as much emotion. I have to be ready to explain why I'm upset and it might not be appropriate for them to know. There's nothing worse than «You'll understand when you're older». I don't want to be that person. But if I'm upset about other things that they can understand, I absolutely will show emotion and cry. On Christmas morning, I cried when my mom gave me a doll house. My kids didn't understand why and I explained I had that at my dad's house as a little girl.
How are you with them and social media? How do you navigate that whole chapter that is such a daunting one for our generation?
In a perfect world would they be on social media? No, but my eldest daughter is light and playful about it. She just genuinely loves to do videos with me. As things come up we'll have those conversations. North does not have social media on her phone yet, she also has weeks without being on her phone and is not a dependent person on her phone. If she was, I would be a little bit more concerned.
You went to high school during what I consider to be the most troubling times of Los Angeles as a city. The mid 90’s were was such a lively and chaotic time to be a teenager there.
I had the best group of friends from high school. They were friends from elementary school, even preschool, and we're all still best friends today. We call ourselves “the Lifers”, there's seven of us. We look at our pictures from our teenage parties, our bat mitzvahs, and everything that we did and I have to say: we were so cool back then! I always felt supported. But yes, if you think about it, as a teenager, especially in those mid 90’s years it was hectic. My dad was going through all those trials and it was pretty intense in my life. My boyfriend’s mother (Michael and Janet Jackson’s nephew T.J. Jackson’s mother, Dee Dee Jackson) whom I was really close with was murdered in 1994 (she was found dead in a swimming pool and her boyfriend was later arrested for the murder) and I had to be part of that trial. To have that experience at such a young age was insane. And it was also back-to-back with the OJ trial, there was just a lot of layers there.
How were you involved in the trial?
I had to testify and was there every day with my boyfriend. I was just 14, you know.
There is a monasterial element of your home and office space, the lack of clutter and the sense of balance exudes from the calming colors you choose as well as the décor. Maybe in another life you were some kind of high priestess.
I did have a reading with a medium not too long ago who said my soul had done so much soul work in past lives that the way I handle stress and pressure is now completely clear. That’s why I can handle so much.It’s true, in times of crisis I'll get a little bit stressed out, but I'm a problem solver for a lot of people in emergency situations. So far haven't let anything really break me.
The way you've navigated your entire separation from your husband is one of the most graceful that I've ever seen in entertainment.
Thank you! Sometimes you just don't really have a choice. Would I have made the situation better if I handled it in any other way? No. Would I have made it worse? Yes. I think at some point you just have to surrender to not getting the last word and not having your truth out there. I also saw a really good example from my parents. And that was helpful. It makes me want to be an example for my kids too.
Like Sun Tzu said “If you wait by the river long enough…” Maybe there is no reason to set the record straight. It’s important not to react.
One hundred percent, yeah. I think sometimes people can just be really reactive and it won't help the situation. It won't make it go away quicker.
It feels like a new Kim has arrived, both aesthetically and spiritually. I wonder how you greet her and what you lovingly leave behind?
I do feel like it's a new me. My prior confidence stemmed from having a partner whose opinion I trusted so much. When that happens you kind of lose your own. Now I'm at a time where I just want to do the right thing. I want to appreciate everything and everyone around me, mind my own business, and value my relationships with my kids. In terms of what I want to leave behind, I'm not the type of person who forgets about she came from. I am grateful for all of it.
Your clothing and shapewear company SKIMS is going amazingly well and your skincare company SKKN will hit one year this summer. How does that feel?
I'm excited because we are expanding and there's been so much that I wanted to say and do with skin and it's finally all going to be happening.
Is that what's taking up most of your time right now? And are you doing research for your makeup?
I do research all the time, but also I think a huge part of my research is when I get my makeup done. I work with the best makeup artists, so seeing all of the products they use and everything they're talking about is inspiring. I feel lucky that I get to have those first hand weekly conversations.
You’re the muse and face of the new Spring-Summer 2023 Women's ADV Campaign for Dolce & Gabbana. Do you also ever scout for unknown, emerging brands?
I think it's always a mix. I love emerging talent. My stylist is always looking for new relationships and brands. We're always always keeping an ear to the streets and seeing what's out there and what everyone's loving and wearing, even when we travel. If I am going to Armenia, I always ask who the local designers are. When I go to Miami or London, I’ll always keep in mind a little bit of a different style. I love dressing local when I can.
As a writer I have to ask: are you reading anything exciting?
I’m reading a book that’s called Signs by Laura Lynne Jackson and I’m loving it.
In the cover photo
Long tube dress of draped organzine, tulle gloves and rooster feather and marabou ruff worn as a DOLCE&GABBANA headband.
Photographer - Rafael Pavarotti
Stylist - Ibrahim Kamara
Hair Stylist - Chris Appleton
Make-up artist - Hiromi Ueda
Set Designer - Ibby Njoya
Manicurist - Simone Marino
Post Production - Dtouch Lnd
Location - Circus Studios
Production - Amazed Production
Thanks to Kim's make-up artist, Rokael Lizama
